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Dáil Debates & Questions
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December 18 2008
Dáil Debates
Parliamentary Questions
DÁIL DEBATES Deputy Pat Rabbitte (L): asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position regarding contacts he has had with the Equality Authority regarding difficulties they will face as a result of his decision to cut its budget by 42% for 2009; the reason he did not accept the suggestion put forward by the board of the authority for alternative cuts that would have resulted in savings of 32%; his views on the resignation of a person (details supplied) as chief executive and his view that the budget cut imposed by his Department had rendered the authority unviable; Deputy Dermot Ahern (Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform): At the outset I wish to state the Government’s absolute commitment to the principles of equality and the elimination of discrimination as enunciated in much equality legislation passed by the Oireachtas. I commend the work of the Equality Authority and I state my commitment to ensuring a secure and viable future for the Agency. The Government and its predecessors promoted the legislation and which earmarked €47 million for the Equality Authority since 1997, increasing from an initial budget of €378,000 and rising to €5.9 million in 2007. The Government and its predecessors increased the number of staff in the Equality Authority to 53 in 2007. We will continue to earmark substantial taxpayer resources to the Equality Authority to allow it to carry out its core functions as per the legislation. Naturally, when the national finances permit, we will also ensure that the budget of the Equality Authority is appropriately increased. I am requesting all agencies which fall under the remit of my Department, including the Equality Authority, to engage in coming months with the expenditure review group which will take an independent analysis of the position relating to their budgets, efficiencies and the capacity to fulfil their core functions. I accept that 2009 will be a difficult year for all public bodies, including the Equality Authority and other agencies in the justice area. However, I am satisfied there is sufficient funding for the authority to enable it to discharge its core functions. I welcome the statement this week from the board of the authority declaring its commitment and determination to continue to work effectively and independently for the elimination of discrimination and the promotion of equality in our society. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Is it not hypocritical in the extreme of the Minister to trot out some mealy-mouthed platitudes in the House about his commitment to equality, when he has driven out the chief executive from the Equality Authority and has effectively broken up the agency? Is it not the case that the Equality Authority cannot possibly discharge its functions under the strictures now on it? What is the point of reiterating that this Government has done this or the other? The agency only has been in existence for approximately ten years and Fianna Fáil has been in government throughout that time. The Minister could take any agency and multiply its funding by ten years’ budgets to give the impression of enormous largesse and support. Is the Minister proud of the fact that he has driven out the chief executive, a man who has won commendations on all sides in respect of his performance and the independent and courageous manner in which he discharged his duties with integrity? Is the Minister satisfied that the agency effectively has been undermined because it cannot and will not be able to discharge its functions in the future? Deputy Dermot Ahern: The ethos of my political party on its formation was to bring equality into a highly divided and class-ridden society. I take pride in the fact that all of the equality legislation that has been passed by this House has been introduced by Fianna Fáil-led Governments, of which neither Deputy Rabbitte nor his party, the so-called Labour Party, the party of the people, was a member…As for the specific issue of the Equality Authority, Members on all sides, particularly those in the Opposition, have been constantly raising the valid issue of spending on public relations and consultancies. It will do no harm to refer to the 2007 report, which Deputy Rabbitte should have read before coming into the House, on the Equality Authority. In 2007, it spent €220,000 on public relations and €100,000 on consultants. A total of €614,000 was spent on the European Year of Equal Opportunities, half of which came from European funding and half from its own budget, giving a net expenditure of €300,000. It also spent €350,000 on an anti-racist week and €230,000 on a national campaign against ageism, the expenditure on which was criticised by the Opposition in this House. It spent €184,000 on publications and, in effect, €440,000 on rent of premises in Dublin. However, it could make savings by going down and spending only €120,000 on rental accommodation in Roscrea, where 15 employees of the Equality Authority already reside. When Members on the other side of the House raise the issue of consultancies and expenditure, it is valid to go through such expenditure to ascertain where there can be savings. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to facilitate a brief supplementary question. Deputy Dermot Ahern: Again, I revert to the point that I made previously—— An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: If the Minister will have regard to the Chair please. Deputy Dermot Ahern: I wish to finish my point, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I wish to again emphasise—— An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I must inform the Minister that a strict time limit applies, including the time for ministerial responses. Deputy Dermot Ahern: I will revert to the issue later. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister should allow the Chair to operate. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: While Members do not have time at present to deal with the novel proposition that the purpose of Fianna Fáil coming into existence was to address our classridden society, they may return to it at another time. What does the Minister purport to have told Members in his reply, having read out various expenditure headings? Which of them does he suggest is improper? Is it not the task of the Equality Authority to deal with issues such as racism? If excessive rental costs for the headquarters have been incurred, who approved them? Why did someone in the Minister’s Government not do something about it over the past 11 years? Can the Minister assure the House that the forcing out of Mr. Niall Crowley has nothing to do with the Equality Authority’s referral to the Garda Síochána of an allegation that the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, while head of the Prison Service, had breached the Employment Equality Acts? If the Minister is so interested in saving money, is it not the case that the board members of this organisation used to serve free gratis for years until the appointment of the new board by the Minister, the members of which now are paid a fee of €10,000 each? Can the Minister answer these questions? Deputy Dermot Ahern: First, I will not take lectures from Deputy Rabbitte on the genesis of my party, particularly as I am not altogether sure what was his political genesis, given that he has been in so many political parties since he entered this House and beforehand. As for the Equality Authority, I validly listed out areas in which I believe savings can be effected because we are now in a different situation. When I was dealing with the Estimates a number of months ago, I made the point I was trying to make in my earlier response. As I stated during my last Question Time, I told my officials that my number one priority in my Department was tackling crime. This is the reason that, for example, Operation Anvil’s budget has been increased by €1 million from €20 million to €21 million, as well as an increase of 20% in CAB’s budget—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: That is the reason the Minister cut the authority’s budget by 42%? Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——and I am keeping Garda numbers on the street. I wished to concentrate on the issue of policing and tackling crime. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister knows this is entirely disingenuous. Deputy Dermot Ahern: I stated that, unfortunately, all the other agencies that comprise the soft part of my Department were obliged to take a significant cut right across the Department. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Did everyone take a cut of 42%? Deputy Dermot Ahern: Yes. I made the point to the Equality Authority people—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The rest of the agencies experienced cuts of 2%, 4% and 6%. Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——when they came into my office recently—— An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister, without interruption Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——that, to a certain extent, the fact the Department only deducted 1% from the National Disability Authority has been hung around my neck. I made this point strongly to the members of the authority’s board and the chief executive when I met them last week. I told them the Government had made a specific decision when preparing the Estimates and the budget that people with disabilities would be those least affected by cuts. This is the reason there is such a small cut in respect of that authority. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Go raibh maith agat a Aire. Ceist Uimh. 3. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: What about the board members? Deputy Dermot Ahern: However, when one examines this expenditure, it is valid to ask a question on amounts such as €184,000 on publications—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: When did the board members get—— Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——€220,000 on public relations—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is filibustering. Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——€184,000 on publications—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is filibustering. He is spoofing. Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——and €100,000 on consultants. No, I am not filibustering. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: What is the answer to the two questions? Deputy Dermot Ahern: I must say the Deputy is adding to the nasty—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is filibustering. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister must conclude his reply. Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——leak that came from people. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Nasty? Deputy Dermot Ahern: It reflects more on those who made such a nasty leak against a good public servant. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: Is that all the Minister has to say? Deputy Dermot Ahern: It is a disgrace. As usual, the Deputy comes into this House, as he did before many years ago—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: The Minister is flimflamming. He is filibustering. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Ceist Uimh. 3, in ainm an Teachta Charles Flanagan. Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——when he tried to denigrate the church. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: He is filibustering—— Deputy Dermot Ahern: He is at it again and I am not filibustering. I have given the Deputy all the facts. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: ——and he did not answer any of the questions. Deputy Dermot Ahern: I have given all the facts to the Deputy. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputies will resume their seats. Deputy Dermot Ahern: What the Deputy did is a disgrace in respect of a good public servant. This leak was a despicable effort to try to blacken him and the Deputy is adding to it. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will not disobey the Chair. Deputy Dermot Ahern: I will not come into this House—— An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I will suspend—— Deputy Dermot Ahern: ——and allow that man to denigrate someone who is not present to defend himself. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will resume his seat. Deputy Dermot Ahern: This is a disgrace and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle should be intervening. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will—— Deputy Dermot Ahern: The Leas-Cheann Comhairle should be intervening to ask him to withdraw those remarks about a good public official. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will resume his seat or leave the House. Deputy Dermot Ahern: No, I will not. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: I did not denigrate anyone. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy also will—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: However, the Minister did not answer the question. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte will resume his seat. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: He did not answer it. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Rabbitte will resume his seat. Deputy Pat Rabbitte: This was a mean-minded act in which the Minister colluded. Moreover, the Minister did not answer any of the questions he was asked. Deputy Dermot Ahern: I did. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: This is the final—— Deputy Pat Rabbitte: His response was to filibuster and to wrap the Secretary General around him. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: If there is continued disorder, I will suspend the House. This is the final session before Christmas and I would have hoped for a civil atmosphere in the House. I deeply regret the statement by the Minister that he would refuse to obey the Chair. All Deputies, on whatever side of the House, will obey the Chair. We will continue in an orderly fashion and if there is any further disorder, I will suspend the House forthwith. Question No. 3 is called.
Deputy David Stanton (FG): asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Parliamentary Question No. 993 of 24 September 2008, if he will be in a position to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities once the law on the legal capacity of vulnerable adults has been amended; the other legal or administrative requirements which must be met for ratification to proceed; if he has set a provisional target date for ratification; Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy John Moloney): It is the Government’s intention to ratify the UN convention as quickly as possible,taking into account the need to ensure that all necessary requirements under the conventionare being met.The interdepartmental committee established by my Department to advise on and monitorthe legislative and administrative actions required to enable the State to ratify the conventionhas developed a work programme that is being actively addressed by Departments. The DisabilityAct 2005, underpinned by the national disability strategy, meets a considerable portionof the convention’s requirements. In so far as my Department is concerned, the mental capacityBill, which is in the course of being drafted by Parliamentary Counsel, forms an important partof what is required to facilitate ratification of the convention. Work on what is involved byway of implementation of the various other provisions in the convention, which are extensive,continues in the relevant Departments.The Government’s decision on the matter of ratification of the convention will be made indue course, as it must, on the basis of being fully satisfied that all requirements are met ineach Department. Deputy David Stanton: I thank the Minister of State for his response. Given the fact that the convention was signed in March 2007 and came into force in May 2008, will the Minister of State outline to the House what is required, apart from the mental capacity Bill, or send a note to that effect? What is the position on the optional protocol attached to the convention? Some 80 countries have signed it and 26 have ratified it, but we have not signed it. What are the obstacles to our signing? Now or by way of note, will the Minister of State outline what other departmental changes must be made to allow the convention to go ahead? Does the Minister of State agree that we should view the convention as a human rights issue as opposed to a legal one? Deputy John Moloney: It is both a legal issue and a human rights one. The Disability Act 2005, underpinned by the national disability strategy, meets a considerable portion of the convention’s requirements. In so far as the Department is concerned, the mental capacity Bill, which is in the course of being drafted by Parliamentary Counsel, is the main part that has been missing. To clarify and as indicated in my earlier response, the convention will be ratified as quickly as possible, consistent with the need to ensure that all of the requirements under the convention are met. In a nutshell, the ratification depends on the mental capacity Bill. Given the importance of this matter, I commit to advancing it as quickly as possible in the new year. Deputy Finian McGrath: The Minister of State confirmed that the convention will be ratified, but will that be in three, six or 12 months? Given his responsibility for people with disabilities, will he ensure that there will be no cuts in services for people with disabilities in the next 12 months? I urge him to protect his brief. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We have gone beyond the scope of the question. Deputy John Moloney: The timing hinges on the mental capacity Bill, but the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, Equality and Law Reform must be factored in as well. I will stick with my original answer, that is, within six months. Deputy David Stanton: What is the situation regarding the optional protocol? Has the Attorney General examined it, as the House was informed earlier? If so, what was the outcome of the examination? Is there an obstacle to signing the protocol attached to the convention? What additional commitments are we expected to give and what obligations must we meet in order to sign the protocol? Deputy John Moloney: The matter is still with the Attorney General. I expect a response from him in the near future. He is examining what matters outside those relating to the mental capacity Bill need to be taken into consideration before the final—— Deputy David Stanton: The protocol is a separate issue. Deputy John Moloney: I am aware of that. The Attorney General is examining what the protocol entails. The Deputy tabled a number of questions in respect of this matter in recent months and progress appeared to be slow. I wish to give a commitment that the Attorney General’s response on the protocol will be forthcoming within two to three months of the Dáil resuming business at the end of January. PARLIAMENTARY QUESTIONS Deputy Kathleen Lynch (L): asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the position regarding contacts he has had with the Equality Authority regarding difficulties they will face as a result of his decision to cut their budget by 42% for 2009; Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern): I have already dealt with many of the issues raised by the Deputies in my earlier reply to Question No. 2. As I said since it became fully operational in 1999 over 45 million euro has been provided by the State for the activities of the Equality Authority alone. In total, in the last five years my Department alone has spent €127 million on equality and disability issues. By any objective analysis, that is a clear statement of the Government’s strong commitment to building an inclusive society rooted in the principles of equality of opportunity and fairness for all. A robust and effective equality infrastructure has been developed in this country over the last number of years. The Government will continue to strengthen this infrastructure so that persons who do experience discrimination and inequality can continue to exercise, without impediment, their constitutional rights. This is why I ensured additional funding of €340,000, an increase of 15%, will be provided to the Equality Tribunal in 2009 — the Body which actually adjudicates on individual claims of inequality. The additional support the Government is provided to the Tribunal reflects the priority which I believe should be given to persons who have a grievance in this respect. The total budget for State equality bodies in 2009 is almost €7.5m. In the times we are in, that is a significant sum of money. When account is taken of all equality issues including disability, integration, gender based violence as well as human rights, the budget for next year is €25.5m. If proof is needed of my commitment and that of the Government to making Ireland a more equal place, then I would suggest you hardly need to look further than that. As to contacts I have had with the Equality Authority, most recently, I met the representatives of the Authority last week at which they put forward a “Management Plan”. Under the Plan the Authority wanted to retain current staffing levels at 53. They also wanted the Department, out of its own budget, to put forward extra non-pay expenditure of €0.7m. In total the Authority wanted a minimum allocation of €4m compared to the allocation of €3.33m announced by the Government. For the reasons I have mentioned — allowing for the Exchequer position, the clear need for economies and the establishment of priorities in my Department — I did not support the Authority’s claims for more money in 2009. At any rate, that money is simply not there. That the Chief Executive and one member of the Authority (Therese Murphy) should decide to resign from the Authority at this time is, of course, regrettable. I do not as Minister shares their views about the continued viability of the Authority. The Authority, based in Roscrea in new headquarters and staffed by the full complement of persons committed to being there will, I am satisfied, continue to be vibrant and effective. I have said I accept that 2009 will be a difficult year for the Equality Authority and indeed other agencies in the Justice area. However, I am satisfied that the Authority can fulfil its core functions within the allotted financial envelope. I welcome the Board’s statement in this regard and its stated commitment and determination to continue work effectively and independently for the elimination of discrimination and the promotion of equality on our society. Deputy David Stanton (FG): asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Parliamentary Question No. 992 of 24 September 2008, if the strategic document outlining the vision, mission and objectives of the National Disability Strategy as detailed in Towards 2016 has been finalised; when he will publish same; Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy John Moloney): Work on the document committed to in Towards 2016 to outline the vision, missionand objectives of the National Disability Strategy continues under a high-level inter-departmentalgroup in consultation with the Disability Stakeholders Group. The document will befinalised as early as possible in the New Year. Deputy David Stanton (FG): asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment her views on a survey (details supplied) which showed that 70% of people with disabilities who were surveyed replied that they had problems regarding accessing employment; Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Mary Coughlan): The survey results in question are consistent with Census findings which indicate that employment participation by those with a disability, who do not express a difficulty about working, remains significantly lower than for their non-disabled peers. In regard to accessing employment in the open labour market, all FÁS Services are open to people with disabilities, and FÁS encourage people with disabilities to register with them in order to access such employment. In addition, FÁS provides a comprehensive menu of employment supports and schemes to enable people with disabilities to enter the open labour market, and these are complemented by both specialist and mainline vocational training provision. Under the Programme for Government “A Blueprint for Ireland’s Future 2007-2012” my Department is committed to putting in place a comprehensive employment strategy for people with disabilities to help them to work in all sectors. This strategy is a key component of the Sectoral Plan for my Department, which was published in 2006 pursuant to the Disability Act 2005. An outline of how a Comprehensive Employment Strategy for people with disabilities is being implemented has been developed by my Department, and has received a positive response from the Consultative Forum on an Employment Strategy that has been established under the Sectoral Plan. A key focus of the strategy is on effecting the optimal changes to existing programmes, schemes and services, in particular with regard to the Supported Employment Programme and the Wage Subsidy Scheme. The overall objective of the strategy is to enhance the operation and effectiveness of the range of FÁS supports and services for facilitating increased participation of people with disabilities in the labour market.
Deputy David Stanton (FG): asked the Minister for Education and Science the budget allocation and expenditure of the special education support service since its establishment in 2003; the number of staff employed in the service; Minister for Education and Science (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): The Teacher Education Section of my Department provides for a comprehensive system of continuing professional development (CPD) for teachers in the area of special educational needs. Central to this is the Special Education Support Service (SESS). Funding in the amount of €330,000 was provided to the SESS for start up costs in 2003/2004. Details of the actual expenditure by the SESS since 2005 (the first year of full service) to date is as follows:
There is a total staff complement of 29 working with the SESS. It should be noted that there was additional funding available to the SESS in 2008 however, due to a lower than anticipated uptake on some of the programmes of CPD and difficulties encountered in recruiting appropriately qualified staff to a newly established SEN Behaviour team, the actual expenditure in 2008 was lower than expected. My Department is proactive in the development of programmes of CPD that cater for the needs of teachers of pupils with special educational needs. To this end my Department remains committed to providing funding to the SESS to ensure that teachers benefit from CPD that enables them to effect a combined-skills approach to meeting the learning and teaching needs of pupils with special educational needs. The Deputy may also be interested to note that in 2008 for the first time, my Department funded provision of a Professional Development Programme Post-Graduate Certificate/ Diploma in Special Educational Needs (Autistic Spectrum Disorders) by St. Angela’s College, Sligo in collaboration with the SESS. Furthermore, in addition to the funding available to the SESS in 2008 a further €1.35 Million was spent in 2008 to cater for the provision of post-graduate programmes in the area of Special Educational Needs across 7 academic institutions.
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Inclusion
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