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Dáil Debates & Questions
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July 07 2010
Dáil Debates
Parliamentary Questions
DÁIL DEBATES Deputy Enda Kenny (FG): I rise today to speak for those who have no voice for themselves. Last week I raised with the Taoiseach the consequence of Government action in not controlling costs. We now have a situation in which thousands of people — members of families — are forced today to march on this House to protest at the cutting of respite care for the disabled and mentally challenged. Last week the Taoiseach defended his decision. I have considered his reply and I fundamentally reject it. Last year the National Federation of Voluntary Bodies, an association of organisations providing health care services in the voluntary sector, sat down with the Health Service Executive. It faced up to its responsibility in this time of national crisis and agreed on a range of cuts amounting to €15 million, plus all the reductions in public sector pay and so on. The federation said to its constituent members around the country that because this was a time of national crisis, it was prepared to face up to its responsibility and take its fair share of cuts. Then, because the HSE was unable to control its costs in other areas in which there were overruns, it came back and took another €11 million from the voluntary sector. This is what is causing the problem. It is causing thousands of families to march today for their loved ones who have no voice and cannot speak for themselves. The Taoiseach defended this position last week. The report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes outlines so many ways in which the Government could have taken different decisions, thus ensuring that the services provided to those with disabilities, particularly respite care, could continue. For example, the report points out a possible saving of €154 million through rationalisation of State agencies. In the Vote of the Department of Health and Children alone, savings of €1.2 billion could have been made by choosing from a menu of options. However, the Government has allowed a situation to develop in which an extra €11 million has been savagely cut from these organisations by the HSE, with the consequence—— An Ceann Comhairle: Do we have a question, Deputy? Deputy Enda Kenny: ——that people who look after adults with a mental age of three or four are now under serious pressure. The House goes off tomorrow for the summer recess, leaving this absolute mess behind. In the interest of the thousands of families involved in this on a 24-hour basis, is the Taoiseach prepared to take executive action on this and to put a stop to the madness? Is he prepared to allow the voluntary organisations, which are prepared to take their share of responsibility, to be able to continue to provide services in Caherdavin, Swinford, Cabra and other places around the country where closures are having to take place? Will he put a stop to this madness today? Deputies: Hear, hear. The Taoiseach: There is no such decision…I want to make it very clear. It is not acceptable to me or the Government that respite services will be cut and as far as I am concerned, that will not happen. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan (L): It has happened in Limerick already. The Taoiseach: The Minister, Deputy Mary Harney, and the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, are meeting the Brothers of Charity today. I have indicated that there are other savings to be found in terms of management, layers of management, HR systems and purchasing and procurement. There is no such decision and this is not a time to scare people who are vulnerable. There are 25,000 people in receipt of services. The Government has increased spending in this area by 400% and I am proud of what we have done in this area. I was a sponsor of that work myself when I was Minister of Health and Minister for Finance. I remind Deputy Kenny that he was a member of a Government that would not even provide €1 million for emergency services for people. That is his record…I assure Deputy Kenny that the discussions that are taking place will ensure that those people will not be affected, and I will not take any nonsense from the Deputy on that. Deputy Enda Kenny: The first time I asked the Taoiseach a question on Leader’s Questions, I asked about a woman in hospital. The Taoiseach’s response was that it was too facile to raise such a case. I reject the charge the Taoiseach has made today. Shame on him and his Government for allowing what is happening to happen. The Taoiseach has said that no such decision has been made. If not, why are thousands of people marching to the House today? I will tell him why. This is their cry for help. Who speaks for these people? The Taoiseach certainly does not these days. The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny does not anyway. Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach has chosen to increase the entertainment budget in Departments, which is up by 66% this year or €1.2 million. This money is being spent for entertainment and clinking of glasses and €289,000 of it is being spent in the Taoiseach’s Department. The travel budget for Departments is up by €2.4 million this year. Would that money not provide these services and allow these places remain open? The Taoiseach has chosen not to make any redundancies in the HSE corporate body, despite the fact that the chief executive told my party there were at least 2,500 people in the system who did not know what their jobs were or know where they fitted into the system, but yet they had jobs for life. The Taoiseach has chosen not to implement any of the rationalisation options mentioned by McCarthy, which would save €150 million. He has chosen not to do that, but has allowed another soft touch, and allowed the HSE savage the budget for these voluntary organisations. I reject what the Taoiseach is saying here. It is fine for him to talk about governments of 13, 15 or 20 years ago. When the Government of 1994-1997 handed over the economy, it was in surplus for the first time in 27 years. It now looks as if we will have to sort it out again. The Taoiseach has come in here time after time and said he will always accept responsibility for his actions and that he stands over all his decisions. Yes, he does that, but he does not accept their consequences. He does not understand or seem to understand what is happening in thousands of households around this country. He may well smile about it. The Taoiseach: I am not smiling. Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach may say it is not happening, but he should go and ask the sisters, the Daughters of Charity and the Brothers of Charity and those who are providing voluntary services. These organisations faced up to their responsibility. They agreed to take cuts across the board, including pay cuts, and to do the same work for less. However, because the Government has not been able to either govern or manage the sector, the HSE, with its overruns in other sections, has imposed these extra cutbacks on the voluntary sector that provides the best service and value for money of any department under the HSE. The Taoiseach’s response last week and this week is indicative of a Taoiseach and Government who have lost compassion and do not understand the difficulties, stress and pressure these people now face. The Taoiseach will go down in history as the one who presided over the failure to listen to the call of these people on the Government to help them. They are crying out for help. An Ceann Comhairle: Can the Deputy please put his question? Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach is going down the wrong road. There are other options he could have chosen. He will go away for the summer and leave this 24-hour a day situation for thousands of families in his wake. Shame on him and his Government. The Taoiseach: I would rather put the facts than get involved in rhetoric with the Deputy. He should just explain his record in this area. With regard to our record, I am making it clear…I wish to make the point again that no decision has been made….The Deputy made two assertions that decisions have been made to cut services. That is not the case. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: On a point of information, the respite centre in Limerick has been closed for the past three weeks. The Taoiseach: Discussions are taking place today and tomorrow—— Deputy Enda Kenny: The Taoiseach should go down to Limerick and see the place that has been closed. The Taoiseach: I want to make it clear to Deputy Kenny that discussions are taking place today and tomorrow with Ministers and the providers of these services to find the efficiencies and savings that can be found without affecting front line services in the way that has been suggested. Officials from the HSE stated on radio this morning it is not the intention to affect front line services. Deputy Enda Kenny: The centre in Limerick is closed. The Taoiseach: What I find appalling is Deputy Kenny’s failure to recognise that no such decision has been taken…and that discussions are taking place with a view to ensuring that front line services are protected to the greatest extent possible. Deputy Enda Kenny: The respite centre in Limerick is closed. The Taoiseach: We, as a Government, have provided 400% more for disability services than when Fine Gael was in office. Our record in this area…When I came into office there had been people from Fine Gael and the Labour Party in Government before me who had not been able to provide €1 million for emergency services. My commitment in this area has been proven and there are discussions taking place to ensure that the most vulnerable are not affected and that they find other savings than what may have been suggested by anybody else. That is my statement to the people today. That is the commitment on which I intend to achieve an outcome. With all due respect, despite the Deputy’s continued efforts to suggest otherwise, decisions have not been taken in respect of what we want to see taking place as a result of the ongoing discussions. Deputy Eamon Gilmore (L): The people who will be on the streets of Dublin and other cities today have not dreamed this up, they are not imagining it. There have been cuts: Bawnmore in Limerick is closed; the facility on the Navan Road is closed; and Galway is threatened with closure or cutbacks in the services being provided. Last Friday all the service providers got letters informing them of the cutbacks that are taking place. Parents and carers of people with disabilities are understandably very agitated to the point that they are out on the streets because of their fear that they will lose their respite care which in some cases is one day a week or one weekend in every six. This care enables them, as they would put it themselves, to have a life for those couple of days on which care is provided. It is fair to say that the people who are on the streets today felt that the days of having to protest, of having to walk on the streets in order to bring attention to the needs and difficulties they have in providing care for members of their family who suffer with disabilities were over. They also thought the days of having to publicise the circumstances, difficulties and personal cases of their loved ones in order to embarrass the Government into providing the necessary care were over. I have two questions for the Taoiseach. First, will he give a guarantee today to every parent and carer of persons with disabilities that they will not lose their respite care? Second, will he give an assurance that there will be no cutbacks in the services provided to people with disabilities? The Taoiseach: It is not a question of embarrassment for the Government. This Government has committed itself with money and with resources to extending these services, which were in an appalling state before we came into office. The facts speak for themselves and Deputy Gilmore was a member of that Government. He should not suggest to me that I have any cause for embarrassment in that respect. Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Taoiseach was also in government at that time. The Taoiseach: Deputy Howlin was Minister for Health. Deputy Brendan Howlin: The Taoiseach was my Cabinet colleague and Deputy Bertie Ahern was Minister for Finance. The Taoiseach: Deputy Quinn gave me the extra €1 million for emergency services. Then there was the era when Fergus Finlay was the second most powerful man in the Government. Deputy Dermot Ahern: That was 1994 to 1997 — does Deputy Howlin remember that? The Taoiseach: However, let us leave that aside because we are talking about now. Deputy Brendan Howlin: Yes, let us talk about now. The Taoiseach: Exactly. I want to make it clear that this Government has a record of improvement and increase of services for these people, and rightly so, which I will stand over against any predecessor in any office. I am looking at Deputy Quinn in that respect. Deputy Emmet Stagg: Will the Taoiseach answer the question? Deputy Pat Rabbitte: At least we did not bankrupt the country. The Taoiseach: The second point I want to make is that I have indicated both to the Ministers and to those providing the services that there is a need for them to change whatever arrangements they have — and they have allocated a lot of money — to make sure the people who require the services obtain the services. However, there will have to be changes made in nonfront-line services…What I would expect from responsible Deputies in this House is to indicate that they agree that those non-front-line services should be changed so that those who require them get them….That is precisely what is going on at the moment with Ministers meeting those providers of services. Given the moneys that are being provided — of a total of €1.2 billion, €900 million will go to intellectual disability, which is an awful lot more than when Deputy Gilmore was in office, and some €300 million to those with physical and sensory disability — I am confident that those people who require the services on the front line will obtain them. However, it will require change. Perhaps if Deputy Gilmore were to stand up in the House and explain, as I will, that it is those people who are not in the front line who have to take the efficiencies and not those in the front line, then we have a way of going forward in this situation. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I asked the Taoiseach two simple questions, neither of which he answered. What he has given me in reply is an Ard-Fheis speech. I have no problem with that; I will engage with him any time and anywhere in political back and forth and we can each give as good as we get. That is not the issue today….When we rise tomorrow for whatever length of time, whatever number of months the Taoiseach chooses to close down Dáil Éireann, parents and carers of people with disabilities will have to see how they are fixed over that two or three-month period in terms of providing care. They do not want to know what this Government or that Government did or what the Taoiseach did as Minister for Health. They have simple requirements and I want the Taoiseach to answer their questions. First, will they have the respite care or not? Second, are there going to be cuts in the services they are getting? The Taoiseach can have any arguments he wants with the HSE, and the HSE can have whatever arguments it needs to have with the service providers. Perhaps that should be done. The line Ministers need to take a hands-on approach if that is what must be done. However, the bottom line must be the point of view of persons who have a family member with disabilities for whom they are providing care in the home. Those people are at their wit’s end and are stretched and strained trying to provide that care. They want to know whether they will still have their respite care or if it will be taken away from them as has already happened in some cases. I have asked two questions. Will these people retain their respite care and are there going to be cuts in services? The Taoiseach must do whatever he has to do, with the HSE and with service providers, in order to make it happen. The Taoiseach is Head of Government; it is he who makes things happen. The Taoiseach: That is precisely what the meetings today, tomorrow and during the course of this week are about. That is in stark contrast to the suggestion by a Deputy opposite that decisions have already been taken. Deputy Brendan Howlin: Will the Taoiseach give us a commitment? The Taoiseach: I am not interested in the politics of it; that is the point. I am making the situation clear to the House, as I am making it clear to the most vulnerable people in our society. I stand over the record of this Government in regard to that. Whatever is required to make sure the most vulnerable people are not affected, that is my requirement and that is what I am saying. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell (FG): …I want to ask the Taoiseach about the health information Bill and when he expects it to be published. It is item No. 27 on the B list. By way of information, the Taoiseach spoke earlier about the respite services. These services in Limerick have been closed for the past three weeks. That involves 63 families and individuals, many of whom are travelling to Dublin today for the march. Many of them are elderly and living on their own. The Taoiseach was in Limerick last Monday and gave a commitment that this would be looked after. This is about the lives of real people. All that is involved is €157,000 for the respite services in Limerick. When are we going to get a result? I put this down as a special notice question today on the Adjournment and I hope the Ceann Comhairle allows us to raise it, as we have been trying to do for the past four weeks…This has been ongoing for a number of weeks. On a point of information for the Taoiseach, these respite services are already closed, not about to be closed, because of lack of funding. The Taoiseach: The Bill alluded to by the Deputy will be later this year. I was making the point earlier that there are 5,000 respite places nationally and the discussions being undertaken today and tomorrow relate to 130. Deputy James Reilly: They are not all for the intellectually disabled though. The Taoiseach: One of the issues that should be raised in the discussions that will take place is why there was an acquisition of property which is empty. We talk about the possibility of respite services being affected in Limerick for the sake of €130,000. However, had the house not been purchased, perhaps this would have ensured that the services were available. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: It is current revenue we are talking about, not capital. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: That is not much of an answer for people with no access to respite services. The Taoiseach: These are issues that need to be discussed with the service providers. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: This is about staff, not about capital funding. Deputy David Stanton (FG): On secondary legislation, one of the first actions of the Government when the recession began was to suspend the operation of the Disability Act two years ago. When will this legislation be re-implemented? The Government also suspended the Education for Persons with Special Education Needs Act. There are whole sections that need to be invoked. When will this happen? Am I in order when raising matters concerning secondary legislation?...Sections of the citizen information Act need to be implemented, particularly the advocacy provisions that impact on people with disabilities. When will this occur? When will the carers’ strategy be published, as I understand it is ready? When will we be in a position to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities? We were promised the mental capacity Bill would be published before the House rose for the summer recess. Will it be published tomorrow? Currently, this area is covered by legislation from 1870. Legislation is required on standards of care and inspections of facilities for children with intellectual disabilities in residential institutions. The Minister with responsibility for disability said two weeks ago that the Government was exposed in this area. There is a whole raft of the disability strategy that has either been abandoned, stalled or suspended. Two weeks ago the Taoiseach claimed he has a great record in this area. The record does not stand. Families of people with intellectual disabilities will march on the Dáil later because they are concerned and upset about the putting aside of the disability strategy, the first action this Government took two years ago when the recession began. When will legislation be published on the electoral commission? The Taoiseach: The latter legislation is under preparation. The line Minister can give the Deputy an up-to-date position on that. Deputy Stanton set out several issues. I do not accept there has been a abandonment of the disability sector. Deputy David Stanton: The legislation has been suspended. The Taoiseach: Under this Administration the resources provided to the sector have increased by 400%. Deputy David Stanton: Does the Taoiseach accept the legislation has been suspended? The Taoiseach: Since we came into office four times more has been applied to disability sector. Deputy David Stanton: However—— The Taoiseach: I listened to what the Deputy had to say. Deputy David Stanton: Will he address them? The Taoiseach: The Deputy took five minutes to put the issues and expects me to address them in two sentences…I thought there was a bit more substance to the Deputy’s proposition than that. Can we not listen to each other? Deputy David Stanton: The Taoiseach is waffling. The Taoiseach: With respect Deputy, I would not like to regard what he had to say as waffling and he a member of the Opposition Front Bench. I am sure he is very dedicated but if he wants to take that approach I can simply—— Deputy David Stanton: I apologise for using that term. The Taoiseach: It is not a question of apologising. It is a question of being respectful to each other. I do not accept his characterisation of the abandonment of this sector. The Government has brought forward legislation in this sector based on resources. There is no point in suggesting we implement all sections of the Disability Act without reference to resources. We have increased much-needed resources in this area, an area which had not been properly accommodated in the past. It will be a continuing challenge for anyone in government for the foreseeable future. We need to examine the service provision. I would never suggest support services behind front-line services are not required but they have to be examined. A multitude of service providers have costs across the board in their own organisations that need to be considered. We must consider how we can bring all that together, similarly to shared services in the public sector, in a way that is more cost-effective. I do not want to be in any way disrespectful of these service providers because many of them filled gaps in the past when the State simply did not have the capacity to provide services at all. Thus, there is a historical issue here. There is an ethos that must be respected but, in addition, people must recognise that change is necessary. We cannot assume the continuation of services as currently delivered while at the same time making a commitment to protect the front line. It is not possible…A whole range of changes have been made in that area. I would rather address what Deputy Stanton had to say, because he has some knowledge in the area, with respect. The answer to the question regarding the non-implementation of primary legislation is that the implementation is resource-led. It is about providing in the first instance for those in the younger age group through the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, with the prospect of raising the age to 16 over a period. Whether the person with responsibility for this is me or the Deputy’s leader or anyone else, the same material facts apply. There is no point in suggesting to the public that this can be resolved overnight. It will not be. Instead of focusing on that aspect, let us concentrate on how, in the context of the requirement for more cost-effective services, we can protect the front line based on a good level of service. There are 25,000 people receiving good disability services in this country. Issues have arisen with some service providers, as mentioned by Deputies in the House this morning. It is not correct to suggest that all services are at risk. A small number of places — 130, as I understand it are up for discussion, and those service providers will have to try to find ways of dealing with these issues while protecting the front line, as other providers have done by implementing the efficiencies that were asked for. It is a question of everybody facing up to the challenge. There are a number of substantive issues that can be discussed with them, including savings in areas such as human resources, which are not on the front line but which need to be streamlined. There is potential in these discussions to find a constructive outcome. There is no monopoly on virtue. We all want to see front line services protected, particularly for people such as this. I am entitled to say in my defence that I am proud of the resources I made available when I had responsibility in this area, as Minister for Health and Children and Minister for Finance. This is recognised by the sector and was based on a planned partnership approach with those service providers. There would still be dissenting voices coming from the far side no matter what I said about this issue…My sincerity in trying to find a constructive solution to this problem is no less than that of anyone else. The mental capacity Bill, which is expected to be published next session, forms an important part of what is required to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Work on the implementation of the various other provisions in that convention, which are extensive, continues in the relevant Departments. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan (L): We have had opportunities to raise the issue on numerous occasions but unfortunately we have not received any answers. I wish to raise the closure of the respite house in Clonile in Limerick, which is attached to Bawnmore, the Brothers of Charity service for adults with an intellectual disability in Limerick. That house closed more than three weeks ago leaving no respite service for adults with intellectual disability in the mid-west region. I will not repeat all of the things I have said on the matter in various ways in priority questions and in the other ways in which I have raised the matter in the House. I want answers on behalf of the families that are affected and those who can get no break now. Even when people need to go to hospital they have nowhere for their loved one to go. We need the answers tonight and before we go on holidays. Those people will not be able to go on holidays this year if they do not get an answer. I accept discussions have taken place with the HSE and the Brothers of Charity involving the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. We do not know what happened in those talks. We do not know what was said and what commitments were given. We do not know whether there is an agreement or if the house will reopen. We are talking about the most vulnerable families and people in our communities. In the case of the mid-west, 63 families are affected. Cutbacks have also been made to a variety of facilities. It is a retrograde step for persons who have left residential centres to live in the community to return to residential care. We are going backwards. My main concern is when the respite house will reopen. I want an answer to that question. When will it be available for the families that need it? Many Members attended the protest today and met with people who are directly affected, as we have done on previous occasions. Those people literally have nowhere else to go. I do not want to hear again about talks and about the fact that the Brothers of Charity in the Midwest have €25 million for the provision of services. That is not an adequate answer. I am focused on the families who are affected. They need an answer. They do not need to be told that talks are ongoing. They simply need someone to get their finger out and to make a decision. If the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, has to order them to open it then he should do that. That house must reopen. We must be told when it is reopening before the House rises tomorrow. Deputy Pádraic McCormack (FG): I wish to address the situation in which service providers in Galway found themselves in the past week. HSE west currently has an overspend of €6.9 million. It is projected to be €15.5 million by the end of the year. The three main providers of service in the area to the physically and intellectually disadvantaged in Galway are the Brothers of Charity, Ability West and Enable Ireland. The plan of the HSE to address its bad management was to cut back the allocations to those three bodies to balance its books. The Brothers of Charity had already suffered a cutback of €2.5 million in its allocation earlier in the year but it was able to manage by means of excellent efficiency and savings. I compliment the acting director, Ms Anne Geraghty, and the board of the Brothers of Charity on this achievement. In the McCarthy report on State funding, a savings target of 3.7% over two years was recommended. The Brothers of Charity achieved a 4% saving over one year. Therefore, there is no wastage or inefficiency on their part. Are they now to be penalised for their efficiency in saving of a further €2 million, as was suggested verbally by HSE officials at a meeting late last week? Since I submitted this Adjournment matter yesterday, I understand there has been some movement, or perceived movement. I am aware representatives of the Brothers of Charity met the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, today. I would like the Minister of State to spell out the current position. Will the budget for the Brothers of Charity now not be cut back by a further €2 million? Will the organisation be expected to make further savings? If so, it will be impossible. If the HSE has a current overspend of €6.9 million and a projected overspend of €5.5 million by the end of the year, it should not be taking it out on the providers of a service to the most vulnerable who have stayed well within their budget. A further cut of €2 million would have had a very serious effect on the respite service. Respite care provision would have had to have been reduced by up to 40%, thus putting an intolerable burden on families caring for loved ones in their homes. Respite care is the vital link that keeps affected families together. Families in some of the more severe circumstances receive one night of respite per week. This gives them an opportunity to recharge so they will be able to continue to look after their loved ones. The suggested cutback of €2 million would have devastated the service of the Brothers of Charity, which service is excellent. What happened at the talks today involving the Brothers of Charity representatives from Galway? Will the €2 million that the HSE was supposed to cut not be cut? Are the Brothers of Charity now expected to make a further saving of €2 million in their very efficiently run service? If so, it will be impossible to do so. I hope the wool was not pulled over anybody’s eyes. I am not suggesting the Minister of State is trying to do so. I hope the representatives went home happy today and that everything in the garden is rosy. Will the Minister of State spell out for Members, who have been waiting for two days to speak on this matter on the Adjournment, exactly what happened at today’s meeting? Has the €2 million that was to be cut been restored, thus giving the Brothers of Charity their full budget, apart from the €2.5 million that was cut earlier in the year? Deputy Kieran O’Donnell (FG): I thank Deputy John Moloney, the Minister of State responsible for disability, for attending the House. This is an extremely important issue for us all, particularly in so far as it affects the respite services of the Brothers of Charity in Clonile House, Old Cratloe Road, Limerick. The Brothers of Charity have provided an invaluable service to individuals and their parents. There are 63 families affected. We are talking about real people’s lives. I heard the Taoiseach state only 130 people are affected. They are real people. Many of them marched outside the Dáil at lunchtime today. Many are elderly parents of intellectually disabled adults. The respite service in Limerick provided a break for both the intellectually disabled and their parents. Many of the parents are widowed. We need to get from the Minister of State tonight confirmation that the respite home in Clonile will be reopened. It has been closed for three weeks since 14 June. It is unforgivable. This matter has dragged on for far too long. We need to know the subject of the Minister of State’s discussions with the Brothers of Charity today and how respite services for intellectually disabled adults in Limerick city will be affected. We need to hear that a commitment was made to provide funding and that the respite unit will be reopened tomorrow. We will not leave this House tomorrow until we receive confirmation in this regard. The victims are the intellectually disabled adults and their parents. I pay tribute to the parents for what they do for their children over their lives. They have two main concerns, namely, that their children will be looked after when they are alive and when they pass away. People should not be put in these circumstances. Before midnight, we want confirmation from the Minister of State that the residential respite unit in Clonile House on the Old Cratloe Road will be reopened and that the 63 families will be able to avail of the service again. They receive one night of respite per month on average. This is a defining moment for the Government. The heartache that the failure to draw down €157,000 has caused over the past three weeks is unforgivable. I hope to hear positive news from the Minister of State tonight such that the unit will be reopened tomorrow and that people’s lives can return to normal. Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy John Moloney): I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. I recognise other Deputies had an interest in it also. I am not in the business of pulling the wool over anybody’s eyes; that goes without saying. I will refer to the meeting today. It is a pity Deputy Jan O’Sullivan made the point this is a matter of having meeting after meeting but it must be a matter of meetings. That is why the meeting was today. Tomorrow evening’s meeting will be with the umbrella group, the national voluntary organisation. Let us try to deal with the issues that arise. Deputy McCormack was concerned about today’s meeting and wondered what the outcome was. He has a Galway perspective. The Brothers of Charity confirmed that they can maintain the respite service in the current year from within currently available resources. It is not for me to say that. The Brothers of Charity has issued a statement this evening to this effect. I did not read it but heard it referred to on the news. The statement that only 131 people are affected was made by way of saying 5,000 people are in receipt of respite care. The reference to 131 was in the context of the fact that 42 providers are providing respite care. It occurred to me that, of the 42, 40 were in a position to continue providing care. Two had a difficulty. I want to be as specific as I can about the meetings. Some weeks ago, when the possibility of Bawnmore was flagged to us, I suggested to the HSE publicly on radio that the local health managers should sit down with the services providers to determine where their difficulty lay, bearing in mind the allocation of €1.6 billion for disability services. I pointed out at all times that it would not be necessary to cut the respite care budget. Whether it is unthinkable or otherwise, it must be said that there was a €30 million budget for Bawnmore. The shortfall was €145,000. I mentioned the outcome of today’s meeting in respect of Galway. The Brothers of Charity left the meeting today to consider the issue of Bawnmore. I must give a commitment before we rise tomorrow evening. My commitment has been to retain respite services this year. I want to be very specific with Deputy McCormack because he raised concerns about this matter on a few occasions. The issue of demanding a further cutof €2 million is not on the table. Last week’s suggestion of seeking a further €2 million will notbe acted upon in the context of this year’s service. This will be reaffirmed in the statement wewill issue tomorrow evening.Let me refer to the lead-up—— Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: Did the Minister of State clarify that the Limerick unit will reopen in addition to the one in Galway? Deputy John Moloney: I am not trying to hide behind words. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: Could the Minister of State answer a question? Acting Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady): The Minister of State without interruption. Deputy John Moloney: No, I am prepared to accept the question. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: The second last paragraph of the written response provided by the Minister of State states: The brothers have indicated that the respite service can be largely restored for €150,000 in the current year. The Brothers of Charity today indicated that they would work with the HSE to ensure this happens. When will this happen? Deputy John Moloney: I am sorry if I am going against procedure, but I want to be as helpful as possible. When the restoration will occur is for the brothers to say. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: But what about—— Deputy John Moloney: May I finish my point? In the context of today’s meeting, the fact that the brothers were experiencing difficulties led me to suggest that the HSE should sit down with them to find the base line if they could not provide the service, providing it should be possible in the context of a budget of €30 million and the brothers committed to doing this today. While I respect Deputy O’Donnell’s concern about the House rising tomorrow, I cannot be tied down to that event. I will be in the Department this month to ensure that respite services are continued at Bawnmore, Galway and Navan. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: I have a quick question. Has the Minister of State requested that the Brothers of Charity revert to him to indicate when the respite house will be reopened? Its situation appears to be different from that of Galway, where the respite service has not yet closed. The service in Limerick has been closed since 14 June, but people were only advised two weeks beforehand. Our concern is for the individuals and their families. The Brothers of Charity would do the work, but has the Minister of State, who has responsibility in this regard, demanded that they revert to him to advise as to when the respite house will be reopened? We cannot allow the House to stand down tomorrow and leave this matter in limbo. Deputy John Moloney: The same could be—— Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: I hope I will be afforded the same latitude as Deputy O’Donnell. Deputy John Moloney: Of course. I apologise if I—— Acting Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady): Just over five minutes are left in the slot. The Deputy should be brief and then allow the Minister of State to conclude. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: If the Acting Chairman has given one Member latitude, I would hope that he would do the same for another. Deputy John Moloney: I accept that. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: The problem is that people have lost trust. The respite house has been closed for more than three weeks. Since then, various individuals have told people that meetings have been taking place. For this reason, I referred to meetings. People do not believe that meetings will have outcomes. We need a commitment tomorrow about a definite date for the house’s reopening. Otherwise, we will not be able to go home to our constituencies. It is as simple as that. Deputy Pádraic McCormack: I wish to come to the Minister of State’s defence. This is the best Adjournment debate I have witnessed since entering the House and I thank the Minister of State for his openness. Instead of reading from a script, as is usually the case, he has dealt with our questions. Did I hear correctly that the proposed €2 million in HSE cutbacks will no longer be going ahead? Deputy John Moloney: I am sorry if I am breaking from procedure, but I am trying to respond. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: It is welcome. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: We thank the Minister of State. Deputy John Moloney: I wish to be clear. Deputy O’Donnell asked whether I had set a timeframe. At the morning meeting with the brothers, I put it to them that I could not accept that the centre would be closed for the sake of €150,000 out of a budget of €25 million to €30 million. To be fair to them, they responded to the effect that they would re-examine the scenario as regards the specific level of funding required to open the home. I am trying to be as helpful as possible. It is important to put on the record that I am not taking this debate simply because of this particular respite issue. I implemented the value for money review to ensure that savings would remain in front line services. I insisted that two people from the sector be involved in the review. There is no sleight of hand. I cannot give a commitment before the House rises because I will only be meeting the umbrella group for the brothers, the daughters and the heads of the sensory, physical and intellectual disability sector at 5 p.m. tomorrow. The €1.6 billion allocated to the service provides adequate resources to continue respite care. Deputy Pádraic McCormack: Does the same pertain to Galway? Deputy John Moloney: I do not want to refer to my prepared script, but I have supplied it to the Deputies. To be fair, no pressure was put on the brothers to respond immediately. They have stated that they have within their resources the ability to continue the services. Deputy Pádraic McCormack: Will that be without the €2 million in further cutbacks? Deputy John Moloney: As stated by the Taoiseach this morning, the commitment to retaining respite for this year—— Deputy Pádraic McCormack: That is what we all want. Deputy John Moloney: I cannot make a prediction for next year. This year, we must live up to our commitment to provide for front line services. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: I have a final point. The Government is no longer requesting €2 million in cutbacks from the Brothers of Charity in Galway. Will a similar arrangement be made with the brothers in Bawnmore in Limerick? It would enable them to find the €150,000 necessary to get their respite service up and running. Will the Minister of State make contact with the brothers in Bawnmore tomorrow to confirm whether respite services will open? Deputy John Moloney: I do not need to make contact with the brothers because they are committed to providing resources to continue the respite care. The commitment given by the Taoiseach and me this morning was to restore respite services. I am not trying to play with words, but I understand last week’s meeting with the HSE in Galway used the terminology of €2 million in savings rather than cuts. There was no specific demand to cut money from the service. This year’s service level agreements are in place. That is the commitment. Acting Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady): Time has expired. Deputy Pádraic McCormack: I thank the Minister of State for the way in which he has handled this debate. It has been one of the Dáil’s best Adjournment matters. I thank the Minister of State sincerely for answering our questions instead of just reading from a script. I also thank the Acting Chairman for being so lenient with Deputies and for allowing the debate on this important matter to proceed. Acting Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady): The Deputy is welcome. Deputy Kieran O’Donnell: Is the Minister of State committed to having the respite services reopened? Deputy John Moloney: Yes. Deputy Kathleen Lynch (L): I am glad to see that the Minister of State with responsibility in this area is here tonight. Last week I was contacted by the parents of two children both aged seven and each without a place in a school for the coming September. These children are lucky they have parents who are very proactive but even they were surprised at the late notice to inform them that the school which the children had attended for the last three years could not offer them a place for the coming year. Both children have special needs and will need a lot of support in order to remain at mainstream school. The parents have applied to three other schools and have in at least one case appealed under section 26 of the Education Act. All that it is possible for the parents to do they have done, and they are still trying desperately to ensure that their children have a school place this September. In the words of the mother: “I am running around chasing my tail and becoming more desperate every day. When I ring the national education welfare board to speak to the office dealing with my daughter’s case the phone rings twice and then stops. There is no voice mail and no return call.” All the schools are now on holidays and it is unlikely that places will be found for these children before September.How hard can it be to ensure that children who started school at five have a place at seven?We all know that additional supports are needed but surely, with two years in which to assess their educational needs, it should be possible to provide school places for children who are already in school. The last date for enrolment in most schools is 31 March yet these parents were not informed until the start of June, way too late for the children to apply for a place in another school. Why was it left until the last minute? Last week, having worked on this the whole week long, I eventually decided to phone the national education and welfare board. Imagine my shock last Friday when in order to move this on and try to get a place for these children I phoned to speak to someone, only to be told that the officer dealing with the case was on holidays. People need to take holidays but when I asked when he would be back I was told not until the 30 August. I thought it was a joke at first, since that was the day the schools were going back. The same day the children are due to start school is the date the officer dealing with the case will be back at work, 30 August. On further inquiry it would appear that eight people are working in the NEWB office in Cork, and six are now on holidays, returning on 30 August. This to me, seems incredible, but I am assured it is the case. It also explains to me in detail why there is always an enormous panic during the summer in terms of school places and why nothing happens in that period. During the summer there is always a panic about why nothing happens in addressing availability of school places. The children in question will not be dealt with until 30 August. This means that even if a place is found for them in the primary school system, it will not be well into September. By then the rest of the school will have already started and these children will be playing catch-up, as if they were not playing it to begin with. Why is it left until the last minute to inform these parents about the placements in the schools their children were already attending? Why is no one available to help them? The kids in question have proactive parents. What about those who have parents with their own difficulties? When parents seek assistance from staff in the National Education Welfare Board who are paid to assist them to find their way through the process, they find they are not available for the entire summer as they have the same conditions as national school teachers. It is incredible an entire office can be off until 30 August. Will the Minister intervene to ensure the children in question have school places for the end of August, not the end of September? Deputy John Moloney: I am replying to this Adjournment matter on behalf of the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills. The Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004 requires all children with special educational needs shall be educated in an inclusive environment with children who do not have such needs, unless the nature or degree of the need is such that to do so would be inconsistent with the best interests of the child or the effective provision of education for children with whom the child is to be educated. The Department, therefore, provides for a range of placement options and supports for schools which enrol pupils with special educational needs so that, wherever a child is enrolled, he or she will have access to an appropriate education. To this end, over €1 billion has been allocated in the 2010 departmental budget to support special education in schools. Children with special educational needs may be enrolled in a mainstream school and attend all mainstream classes. Children who are fully integrated may receive additional teaching support through a learning support teacher or a resource teacher. If the child has care needs, he or she may receive support from a special needs assistant. In other cases, a child with special needs may enrol in a mainstream school and attend a special class. This provides an option of partial inclusion in mainstream classes in line with the child’s abilities. Alternatively, if appropriate, the child may enrol in a special school. The Department supports special classes and special schools through the provision of lower pupil-teacher ratios for such classes, ranging from 6:1 to 11:1, the provision of special needs assistants and enhanced levels of capitation funding. There are ten special schools in County Cork which cater for children with special educational needs ranging from mild and moderate to severe and profound difficulties. In addition, two schools currently cater exclusively for children with autism in the Cork area. The Department has also recently granted recognition to two other such schools. The question of enrolment in individual schools is the responsibility of the managerial authority of those schools. The Department’s main responsibility is to ensure schools in an area can, between them, cater for all pupils seeking places. This may result, however, in some pupils not obtaining a place in the school of their first choice. It is the responsibility of the managerial authorities of schools to implement an enrolment policy in accordance with the Education Act 1998. In this regard, a board of management may find it necessary to restrict enrolment to children from a particular area or a particular age group or, occasionally, on the basis of some other criterion. This selection process and the enrolment policy on which it is based must be non-discriminatory and must be applied fairly in respect of all applicants. Under the Education Act 1998, each school is legally obliged to disclose its enrolment policy and to ensure principles of equality and the right of parents to send their children to a school of the parents’ choice are respected. Section 29 of the Education Act 1998 also provides parents with an appeals process where a board of management of a school or a person acting on behalf of the board refuses enrolment to a student. Where a school refuses to enrol a pupil, the school is obliged to inform parents of their right under section 29 of the Education Act 1998 to appeal that decision to either the relevant vocational educational committee or to the Secretary General of the Department. The National Educational Welfare Board is the statutory agency which can—— Deputy Kathleen Lynch: The Minister of State should take his time now and read this part of his reply very slowly. Acting Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady): The Minister of State without interruption. Deputy John Moloney: ——assist parents who are experiencing difficulty in securing a school place for their child. I take the point the Deputy raised. At present, the Department funds over 8,600 whole-time equivalent learning support resource teacher posts, over 10,000 whole-time equivalent special needs assistant posts and over 1,000 teachers in special schools. Requests for support or assistance for children with special educational needs are made by schools directly to the National Council for Special Education which is responsible, through its network of local special educational needs organisers, for allocating resource teachers and special needs assistants to schools to support children with special needs. The council operates within the Department’s criteria in allocating such support. Parents may also contact their local special needs assistant directly to discuss their child’s special educational needs. In addition, enhanced capitation funding is paid to special schools and in respect of special classes in mainstream schools. The Department also provides over €50 million annually for special school transport arrangements. To further support the inclusion of children with special needs, all new school buildings and extensions are designed to enable access for all. The Deputy’s point about placements beginning at the end of August makes sense. I will bring the matter up with the Minister in the morning and respond to the Deputy as early as I can in the next two weeks.
PARLIAMENTARY QUESTIONS Deputy Jan O’Sullivan (L): asked the Minister for Health and Children the preparatory work that has been carried out to ensure that the proposed new children’s hospital is suitable for children with intellectual, physical and sensory disabilities and children with autism; Minister for Health and Children (Deputy Mary Harney): The new children’s hospital and ambulatory and urgent care centre is being planned and designed to conform with all disability regulations for buildings. A Family Forum, consisting of parents and guardians of children accessing existing children’s hospitals, has been established to work with the design team on the detailed hospital design. Representatives from families of children with physical, intellectual and sensory disabilities are members of this Forum. Deputy Mary Upton (L): asked the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport the location of the 17 sports inclusion disability officers; the reason that 15 local sports partnerships do not have a SIDO: the estimated cost of extending the SIDO network to every local sports partnership; if it is planned to fund this network into 2011; Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Deputy Mary Hanafin): A network of 32 Local Sports Partnerships (LSPs) have been set up throughout the country by the ISC to coordinate and promote sport at local level especially amongst specific target groups such as older people, girls and women, people with disabilities, unemployed people, and those who live in identified disadvantaged communities. As the Deputy is aware, there are currently seventeen Sports Inclusion Disability Officers (SIDOs), employed within the following LSP locations, to engage with people with a disability and bring them into the community of sport. • Cavan and Monaghan Sports Partnership • Carlow Sports Partnerships • Clare Sports Partnership • Cork Sports Partnership • Donegal Sports Partnership • Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Sports Partnership • Kilkenny Sports Partnership • Laois Sports Partnership • Limerick City and County Sports Partnership • Mayo Sports Partnership • Meath Sports Partnership • North and South Tipperary Sports Partnership • Offaly Sports Partnership • Roscommon Sports Partnership • Sligo Sports Partnership • Waterford Sports Partnership • Westmeath Sports Partnership The ISC’s funding of €425,000 in 2010 for these SIDOs is part on an overall package of funding of €6.3 million for the 32 LSP network this year to implement a diverse range of programmes and it is evident that the LSPs are effective in delivering programmes locally to increase participation rates. The continued funding of the SIDO scheme is a matter for the ISC in the context of the distribution of its budget and the Council’s priorities within its ongoing funding of the LSP network. Deputy Seán Fleming (FF): asked the Minister for Social Protection the number of applications for domiciliary care allowance scheme received in 2009 and 2010 to date; the numbers where the allowance was granted; the number of cases where it was refused; the number of cases still to be dealt with; Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív): Since the 1st April 2009 this Department has been accepting new claims for Domiciliary Care Allowance (DCA). This follows the transfer of the scheme from the Health Service Executive on foot of a Government decision to reallocate certain functions between Departments and Agencies as part of the health service reform programme. In the period 1st April 2009 to 31st December 2009 a total of 3,389 DCA applications were received. 2,823 claims were fully processed by the Department in 2009, with 1,031 claims awarded and 1,792 claims deemed not to be eligible for DCA. 836 appeals were registered in 2009 with 60 finalised before 31st December 2009. Of these cases, 47 were revised by the Deciding Officer based on additional information received, 2 withdrawn, 5 disallowed by the appeals officer and 6 allowed on appeal. In the period 1st January 2010 to 31st May 2010 a total of 2,208 applications were received in the Department. 1,133 claims have been awarded and 1,181 have been deemed not to be eligible for DCA. Currently there are 460 DCA applications pending decision in the Department. A further 611 appeals were registered in the period to 31st May 2010. The Deciding Officer revised the decision in 315 cases under appeal, based on additional information supplied and 3 appeals were withdrawn. Appeals Officers have disallowed 151, partially allowed 1 and allowed 69 appeals in 2010. Currently there are 848 DCA appeals pending in the Department. Deputy Seán Fleming (FF): asked the Minister for Social Protection if he is satisfied with the domiciliary care allowance scheme application system which places a very heavy burden on the parent or guardian, who are by definition in a difficult situation, as it involves a submission of a detailed statement by them; a detailed statement by the child’s general practitioner and any other relevant evidence from qualified experts who have examined the child compared with a less onerous process for the parent which would involve an individual examination by the Department’s medical assessors of the child to determine their eligibility for domiciliary care allowance; Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív): The transfer of the Domiciliary Care Allowance (DCA) scheme from the Health Service Executive to the Department arises from a Government decision to reallocate certain functions between Departments and Agencies as part of the health service reform programme. Domiciliary Care Allowance is now a statutory scheme provided for in the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2008. The Department has been accepting new claims since 1st April 2009 and has responsibility for all DCA cases from September 2009. In order to qualify for Domiciliary Care Allowance a child must have a disability so severe that it requires the child needing care and attention and/or supervision substantially in excess of another child of the same age. This care and attention must be given by another person, almost all of the time, so that the child can deal with the activities of daily living. The child must be likely to require this care and attention for at least 12 months. An Expert Medical Group, established in advance of the transfer of DCA to the Department, considered that the most appropriate way for the Department to conduct assessments for medical eligibility was by desk assessment by its medical assessors rather than by way of individual examinations, as has been the case in the Health Service Executive. The Group considered that the child’s general practitioner and the medical personnel involved in the case are best placed to provide comprehensive reports which are then considered by the Medical Assessor. Where a person is not satisfied with the decision he/she may seek to have the decision reviewed or may appeal the decision to the independent Social Welfare Appeals Office. I am satisfied with the application system that is in place as it aims to ensure that the scheme is administered in a fair and consistent manner across the country. |
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Inclusion
Ireland, Unit C2, The Steelworks, Foley Street, Dublin 1, Ireland.
Tel: 01 8559891 Fax: 01 8559904 Email: info@inclusionireland.ie |